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- ( Equal PLs ) Ultimate Gohan vs SSJ3 Gotenks
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| ( Equal PLs ) Ultimate Gohan vs SSJ3 Gotenks; SuperSaian1993 vs xGOKUdaSAVIORx | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 7 2013, 05:01 PM (1,413 Views) | |
| + Solid Snake | Mar 7 2013, 05:01 PM Post #1 |
滅Are you frightened?
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Note: This topic was made already by Professor Gohan, one of the Forum Mods but in any case, we as in SuperSaiyan1993 and I decided to to do this last night so to all administrators and mods, do not close this thread despite it being created already. Thank You. If you guys are not the following persons provided in the topic description do not post until a victor is given. You may of course Like the persons responses to see who has the better reason for who said person is defending to win however. SuperSaiyan1993 will defend U Gohan while I will for SSJ3 Gotenks. I will let SuperSaiyan1993 begin the first arguement... begin when you are ready and good luck, may the better debater wins. Edited by Solid Snake, Mar 7 2013, 05:02 PM.
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 Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| SuperSaiyan1993 | Mar 7 2013, 06:39 PM Post #2 |
Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans
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Thank you, xGokudasaviorX. Now to commence my opening salvo, It would actually be easier to highlight Gotenks's weakness in this scenario first and then proceed to mention Gohan's strengths. Gotenks's Weaknesses 1) 30 Minute Time Limit of the Metamorrian Fusion - Ultimate Gohan was able to run out the clock against a much stronger opponent (Buutenks) to ensure his survival - Since this battle deals with equal powers, Gohan has an even higher chance of surviving than he did with Buutenks 2) Time Limit Exacerbated by SSJ3 to ~10 minutes -SSJ3 is going to run down the already-limited clock of Gotenks's fusion time 3) Gotenks's Cockiness -SSJ3 Gotenks did not utilize his fusion time efficiently against Super Buu; he was in poisition to deliver an ultimate finisher but failed due to exceeding the limit - SSJ Gotenks pre and post both Wasted time with childish antics, caught up in fusion self-aggrandizement Gohan's Strengths 1) No Strain due to SSJ3 or Fusion - Straightforward; won't have a time limit or strain on his powers from SSJ3 (Optional Premise): 2) Skill - Albeit partially conjecture, it can be argued that Ultimate Gohan has more skill than Gotenks These opening thoughts sum up my stance. Whenever you're ready to offer your counterargument, xGokudaSaviorx. |
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| + Solid Snake | Mar 7 2013, 09:57 PM Post #3 |
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滅Are you frightened?
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Good starting point SSJ1993 Now for me to begin, since you put Gotenks on blast and exploited some of his weaknesses, I think it should be fair to do the same for Gohan. But before I do that let me clear something up: Gohan, even before his power up from Elder Kai was able to sense Super Buu's inital power from the Sacred Kai Planet, and after Super Buu escaped captivity from the HTC; Goku, Supreme Kai, Kibito all sensed his presence. We can assumed Gohan did to so. So with this being said, Gohan now Ultimate Gohan, came to earth to save it but after he arrives he completely dominates him on the field, but it was later evident that he was playing with him after a while. Gohan's First weakness: Overconfidence - If he could have he could have easily defeat the obviously inferior Super Buu if he wanted but he choose not to and allowed Super Buu to outsmart him into absorbing SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo. Second weakness: Lack of experience - Like you said, during U Gohan's fight with Buutenks he was shown to be able to rival Buutenks but the problem with that is that after a while Gohan couldn't even land a blow much less strike him down, he stood virtually no chance as also stated by Elder Kai. And during the fight he was not quite cautions at all as he fell for Buutenks Kamikaze Attack and was nearly killed as a result. He also fell for one of the cheapest trick in the book taunting. If he was a calm collected fighter he'd might have been able to see through his own faults. I agree with Gotenks being coky (for the most part), however Gotenks not finishing off Super Buu wasn't showing us he was being cocky, he was cocky during the whole fight mostly and near the end of it , manhandled Super Buu, it could be argued that he was or wasn't cocky during the end but the point still stands: Gotenks had the power to defeat Buu but was just letting it go to his head resulting in a much longer than needed fight. Skills I will give to Gohan but Gotenks has a lot of Ki ampping and more devastating attacks. A quick list that could end this fight will be: -Galactic Donut -Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack -Super Kamehameha* -Big Tree Cannon -Super Buu Volleyball Attack -Vice Cannon These could but Gohan on the bad side of the boat. (*Note: Before he was about to finish off Super Buu, it looked as if he was about to do a Kamehame-ha) I'll let you have the next counter measure. |
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Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| jonte9195 | Mar 7 2013, 10:35 PM Post #4 |
RAT-TAT-TAT-TAT
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Gohan never rivaled buutenks... He started getting smacked up right away... |
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Human Fails!!
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| SuperSaiyan1993 | Mar 7 2013, 10:50 PM Post #5 |
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Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans
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Not badly done. Your two weaknesses for Gohan -- Overconfidence and Lack of Experience -- would seem to be held in common with Gotenks. I'm going to argue that these weaknesses are deadlier to Gotenks than to Gohan. In addition, I will address the ki techniques EDIT: Accidentally used the Italics feature and don't how to remove it without typing it all again, so my bad. Shouldn't make it that hard to read 1) Overconfidence The sheer power of SSJ3 + Fusion is bound to make Gotenks more overconfident than Gohan. You bring up the point that Gohan was overconfident against Super Buu as if that would happen in Gotenks vs. Gohan @ equal powers. Well, gotta disagree with you there. Gohan was overconfident because he was undoubtedly superior to Super Buu. This superiority won't be a case in this battle. Furthermore, Gotenks has been shown to be overconfident regardless of his superiority/inferiority to his opponent as seen in Base Gotenks/SSJ Gotenks vs. Super Buu and the anime battle of Base Gotenks vs. Fat Buu. Gotenks has never been seen to bother to measure his opponents's strength, whereas Ultimate Gohan was only seen to be overconfident when the gap is largely in his favor. Ergo, The Overconfidence factor is going to hurt Gotenks more than Gohan. 2) Inexperience Gotenks is the fusion of two kids. Gohan has fought against Saiyans, Ginyus, Frieza, and Cell. Although he didn't train for years leading up to the Buu saga, he is going to have more experience than the kids' fusion. Moreover, Gohan trained very proficiently with the Z sword. Compared to the Dabura fight, it seems plausible to infer that Gohan mostly made up for his skill atrophy In addition, I believe you misunderstood why I brought up Buutenks vs. Gohan. Gohan had no chance of winning against Buutenks. The fact that he survives proves that he can evade a fusion opponent until the clock winds down 3) Techniques Gotenks: -Galactic Donut -Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack -Big Tree Cannon -Super Buu Volleyball Attack -Vice Cannon If he did not use the Kamehameha, it is unfair to just give him it. Galactic Donut = Not that Useful: If Gohan can break free from Buutenk's Galactic Donuts, he shouldn't have problems with Gotenks's Vice Cannon = Not that Special: Standard Ki Mouth attack used by Nappa and copied by Super Buu, don't see much significance there Volleyball attack = Problematic but doesn't appear fatal Big Tree Cannon = Kamehameha could Cancel it Super Ghost = 1 time only thing: Vegito learned how to destroy them, and IIRC I think Gohan was hit by Buutenk's and it didn't cause that much damage Gohan: Kamehameha Masenko Both of Gohan's techniques are powerful and reliable. Most of Gotenks's techniques, albeit sometimes very powerful, are unreliable in either charge time or effectiveness or hitting/capturing its target Your move ... Edited by SuperSaiyan1993, Mar 7 2013, 10:54 PM.
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| + Solid Snake | Mar 11 2013, 12:22 AM Post #6 |
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滅Are you frightened?
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my semi counter interesting enough I believe the ki attacks will be in ssj3 gotenks' favor, since they are equal PLs doesn't mean they share the same "gifts" their transformation or power up each state provides. I will explain U gohan's first: if Im not mistaken he doesn't have any besides being at least 10x stronger than a.regular ssj3 and having his power being risen beyond his limits. and for a ssj3 you have all abilities the ssj2 gives you ascended about 4 or 5x as much, the most notable thing about ssj3 is that it gives the user absolute ki control and manipulation in ki efficacy. meaning even if most of the time the opponent is stronger or even with you mean you can utilize the total amount of ki you possess and destroy your opposition. done, I will give more info after the break. |
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Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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Mar 11 2013, 12:23 AM Post #7 |
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Gohan Is more experienced in Battle, He should take this after a long match
Edited by Ryder, Mar 11 2013, 12:23 AM.
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| SuperSaiyan1993 | Mar 11 2013, 02:14 PM Post #8 |
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Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans
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my semi-counter: While SSJ3 does provide incredible ki mastery, the cons far outweigh the pros. Neither Goku nor Gotenks could maintain the form for long; their energy being rapidly used up. From what we've seen in DBZ from fights with equal powers who have similar skill-sets is this: more often than not, the one whose energy/stamina lasts longer wins. Some examples of this kind of scenario are the following: SSJ Goku vs. Frieza, SSJ3 Goku vs. Kid Buu, SSJ3 Gotenks vs. Super Buu and 17 vs. Piccolo (it's implied that 17 could've won had the fight dragged on due to the stamina difference) I'll concede ki attacks to Gotenks due to SSJ3, but in the same manner, stamina/energy must be conceded to Gohan Like xGokudaSaviorx, I will be taking a break during spring break. It's been a great debate so far, I'll be looking forward to continuing it! |
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| + Solid Snake | Mar 20 2013, 03:00 PM Post #9 |
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滅Are you frightened?
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Okay I will continue this debate with SSJ1993 as of now. About the cons, let's get something straight: You mention that the stamina gives the person who has SSJ3 a disadvantage, more specifically whom I'm referring to, SSJ3 Goku vs Kid Buu . Even with the massive Ki drain Goku stated that if he would have gone all out from the get-go he would have easily defeated the Kid Majin. So even with the drain it does not happen instantly as you make it sound, and like I said before the SSJ3 traits gives it the advantage in equal power levels. Yes, I concede that U Gohan has the stamina but Ki wise SSJ3 Gotenks has it easily no question about that. Your move friend. |
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Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| SuperSaiyan1993 | Mar 20 2013, 04:34 PM Post #10 |
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Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans
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Alright well first off starting with Goku's statement: I'm not certain that belief can hold much weight. Goku thinks he could've beaten Kid Buu with an all-out SSJ3 attack; he also thinks that he can regather his full power if Vegeta holds Buu off. That was proven incorrect showing that Goku knows less about SSJ3 than he had first thought. SSJ3 was very draining when dead and extremely draining when alive. Will the drain happen instantly? No, but Buutenks had SSJ3 ki efficacy at his disposal -- e.g. Galactic Donuts -- and Gohan still was able to evade until 30 minutes ran out. Therefore, it seems very likely that Gohan can avoid Gotenks for a smaller duration In addition, Gohan and Kid Buu are not the same opponent. Kid Buu falls back on regen and thus usually always plays around. If Gohan knows his life is in danger, he'll try to end it I'll concede ki mastery to Gotenks certainly. But in this kind of fight, I'm not sure how much it'd help. Any more facets in mind or should we let the voters decide? Edited by SuperSaiyan1993, Mar 20 2013, 04:35 PM.
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| + Solid Snake | Mar 21 2013, 01:00 PM Post #11 |
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滅Are you frightened?
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More facets heh... Well even if that's true, Gotenks was complemented by Goku himself and admits that it was not easy but that Gotenks was moving around like he trained for years. (This is however is my only qoute that the advantages varies for each user, however this was only stated in the anime and this my only source for now) You bring up Buutenks like he was serious, judging from him mocking U Gohan I can believe that he was totally toying around with him the whole time. It true that neither can keep the form up for long periods of time but during Goku's fight with Kid Buu, at the end when his power was slipping away he felt the effects of it which relovely ladyed in him getting weaker to the point he was even doing damage physically and had to resort to Ki based attacks which would destroy anyone without Regen, whereas Gotenks did not even when his time was seconds away from his time and yet he was still destroying Buu. So Gotenks can fight with his max even if his time is nearly out, which also gives him an advantage in 5 minutes fight. Edited by Solid Snake, Mar 21 2013, 01:01 PM.
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Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| SuperSaiyan1993 | Mar 21 2013, 03:11 PM Post #12 |
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Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans
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Well, let's break the final pieces down. What you and I got wrong: - I mis-remembered the Buutenks vs. Gohan fight -- Buutenks was toying around - You based your SSJ3 advantages on anime non-canon - SSJ3 Gotenks only has 5 minutes to fight From here, I'll argue: Probability-wise, it's most likely Gotenks will toy around due to the cockiness inducement of SSJ3 and Fusion combined. However, even if Gotenks doesn't fool around, it doesn't seem likely that Gohan will get knocked out in 300 seconds. -Hand-to-hand combat -- edge: Gohan - Ki combat -- edge: Gotenks Stamina and Experience -- edge: Gohan These factors are why I think Gohan would win. If you have any more counters, go ahead my friend |
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| + Solid Snake | Mar 21 2013, 03:24 PM Post #13 |
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滅Are you frightened?
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Well that may be but Gohan may not be serious at all either, I mean he was serious against Super Buu and look where that got him. I did base most of it off non-canon but the fact remains that Gotenks has more experience with SSJ3 then Goku does. And to add, Goten alone was able to give MSSJ Gohan a run for his money pre tourney, and Trunks was even able to land a blow on a holding back Vegeta as well; who both have eons of experience in combat. your move. Edited by Solid Snake, Mar 21 2013, 03:56 PM.
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Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| SuperSaiyan1993 | Mar 21 2013, 04:52 PM Post #14 |
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Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans
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- SSJ3 experience: I'd say that fusion enables Gotenks to be better equipped with SSJ3, yes I'll concede that - Seriousness: Gohan will not be sufficiently serious either at least initially. But before their power-ups, Goten/Trunks were shown to be cockier than Gohan. So, it's a matter of proportion really; post power-up it should still be: Seriousness -- Gohan >Gotenks Experience: Time forges experience not feats because those are based solely on power. The kids are gifted; the adults and Gohan were surprised and had to step up their game. Goten and Trunks never fought a battle against a stronger opponent to ascertain how to keep fighting when losing so no: Gohan > Gotenks experience Like in the show, Deadliest Warrior (I highly recommend it), it all comes down to the stats and here they are again: - Melee -- edge: Gohan - Ki -- edge: Gotenks - Stamina -- edge: Gohan - Techniques -- edge: Gotenks - Seriousness -- edge: Gohan - Experience -- edge: Gohan - Time limit -- edge: Gohan Feel free to correct any of the stats if you believe they're wrong, but judging from our points/counterpoints, I'd say these all hold up well. |
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| + Solid Snake | Mar 26 2013, 03:02 PM Post #15 |
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滅Are you frightened?
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On your stats I think your bending the truth a little on these points: Stamina Seriousness ------------------ Stamina Gotenks was shown a wide degree of stamina during his fight with Super Buu even at a SSJ3. The thing that most people forget is that Goku and Gotenks are two different beings, so even though Goku was shown to have extremely low stamina doesn't mean that Gotenks has so as well. As I said before Gotenks, regardless of the Fusion or not has better mastery of the SSJ3 form then Goku. Seriousness Gohan only got serious when he felt Buutenks strength which was a little to late to begin with. Gotenks and Gohan could have one-shotted Super Buu if they wanted but here's the difference; Gotenks took it serious after he knew Super Buu was in reality no match for him at SSJ3 and Gohan who knew he was superior to even Gotenks at SSJ3, was fully capable of eliminated him. Why would Gotenks get ready to end it while Gohan didn't and only tried after Buutenks was born? Because he wasn't serious as in Gohan. CQC: Gohan Ki: Gotenks Stamina: Both Technique: Gotenks Seriousness: Both but to a lesser degree to Gohan Experience: Obviously Gohan Time Limit: ??? Gohan |
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Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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